Title: UK selects 7.62 mm Sharpshooter weapon for Afghan
tankee1981 - January 6, 2010 08:38 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| UK selects 7.62 mm Sharpshooter weapon for Afghan ops Andrew White Jane's Land Reporter London UK forces are to receive a semi-automatic 7.62 mm x 51 mm 'sharpshooter' weapon to combat Taliban forces engaging beyond the maximum effective range of the 5.56 mm L85A2 assault rifle. In a USD2.5 million deal the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) has contracted Law Enforcement International (LEI) to supply 440 LM7 semi-automatic rifles. The urgent operational requirement follows calls from troops on the ground for a weapon that can be comfortably patrolled with, can be rapidly initiated and provide an increased range for contacts out to 800 m. To be redesignated the L129A1, the gas-operated weapon carries a 20-round magazine, is 945 mm long and weighs 5 kg. It will be manufactured by Lewis Machine & Tool Company in the United States, with deliveries expected to begin in early 2010. Features of the weapon include a single-piece upper receiver and free-floating, quick-change barrels available in 305 mm, 406 mm and 508 mm. It has four Picatinny rails with a 540 mm top rail for night vision, thermal and image intensifying optics. Stock options include fixed or retractable versions. Industry sources told Jane's that LEI beat competition including Heckler & Koch's HK417 (already supplied to specialist units within the MoD), FN Herstal's SCAR (Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle) and an offering from Sabre Defence Industries. To date UK soldiers must complete a marksmanship course to become qualified as 'sharpshooters' and are regarded as being a grade below that of a sniper. Following the introduction of Accuracy International's (AI's) .338-cal L115A3 sniper rifle, sharpshooters have been armed with AI's outgoing 7.62 mm L96 rifle. However, the latter's bolt action does not make it a suitable option for a patrolling soldier. With the majority of contacts occurring at either very close range or at ranges out to between 500 m and 900 m, the "only organic asset" available to responding UK forces in a small-arms capacity is the 7.62 mm General-Purpose Machine Gun, with MoD sources saying that "5.56 mm weapons lack the reach to engage the enemy at those ranges". "The 5.56 mm is sufficiently lethal at the right range, but troops need 7.62 mm for longer ranges. We should be looking at higher performance rounds with higher lethality at longer range. Research is going to filter into user requirements for the soldier system lethality programme," one MoD source told Jane's . |
Janes
Just food for thought, if we should explore the idea of having a 7.62 weapon for our section sharp shooters. Maybe we can have a SAR-21 which chambers the 7.62 rd.
This itself also present the problem of logistics as so far at section level only the 5.56 rd and no 7.62 rd is being used.
Callsign 24 Seira - January 7, 2010 12:30 AM (GMT)
Yes, the 7.62 weapon is long overdue for the Afghan operations!
edwin3060 - January 7, 2010 01:53 AM (GMT)
Hmm the article is pretty ambiguous. I get the impression that the semi-auto LM7/LM129A1 is replacing the bolt-action L96 for sharpshooters, but the article never specifically states which level, squad, platoon or company, that the sharpshooters are used at, or that the 7.62 round is new to patrolling forces (since sharpshooters on patrol are already using the L96)
Let's not make the hasty assumption that UK Army Sharpshooters are directly equivalent to our section sharpshooters, especially since they patrol at platoon level in Afghanistan from what I have seen.
I would agree though that for this purpose (patrolling), a semi-auto 7.62 rifle is far more useful than a bolt-action. The US has been re-using their M-14s in this role for a couple of years already.
Let's not make the hasty assumption that UK Army Sharpshooters are directly equivalent to our section sharpshooters, especially since they patrol at platoon level in Afghanistan from what I have seen.
I would agree though that for this purpose (patrolling), a semi-auto 7.62 rifle is far more useful than a bolt-action. The US has been re-using their M-14s in this role for a couple of years already.
bcoy - January 7, 2010 06:42 AM (GMT)
The new sharpshooter rifle replaces L86 LSW in marksman role, in each infantry section. Not the L96 or other sniper rifles in the sniper role.
Issues with L86 LSW itself, resulted in its replacement by the Minimi SAW in each section. The LSW was used as a markman's rifle instead.
I take it that these new rifles are for infantry sections in Afganistan only? So each British section will now have 2xL85A2, 2xL85A2wGL, 2xMinimi SAW and 2x 7.62mm Sharpshooters.
The SAF should learn from the Brits about bullpup LSW(SAW) issues.
Issues with L86 LSW itself, resulted in its replacement by the Minimi SAW in each section. The LSW was used as a markman's rifle instead.
I take it that these new rifles are for infantry sections in Afganistan only? So each British section will now have 2xL85A2, 2xL85A2wGL, 2xMinimi SAW and 2x 7.62mm Sharpshooters.
The SAF should learn from the Brits about bullpup LSW(SAW) issues.
edwin3060 - January 7, 2010 07:23 PM (GMT)
| QUOTE (bcoy @ Jan 7 2010, 02:42 PM) |
| The new sharpshooter rifle replaces L86 LSW in marksman role, in each infantry section. Not the L96 or other sniper rifles in the sniper role. Issues with L86 LSW itself, resulted in its replacement by the Minimi SAW in each section. The LSW was used as a markman's rifle instead. I take it that these new rifles are for infantry sections in Afganistan only? So each British section will now have 2xL85A2, 2xL85A2wGL, 2xMinimi SAW and 2x 7.62mm Sharpshooters. The SAF should learn from the Brits about bullpup LSW(SAW) issues. |
Do you have information other than the article? Because the article first states that the L129A1 is a 'sharpshooter' weapon, and then near the bottom states that:"sharpshooters have been armed with AI's outgoing 7.62 mm L96 rifle. However, the latter's bolt action does not make it a suitable option for a patrolling soldier."
Nowhere in the article is the LSW or the minimi mentioned.
dtwn - January 8, 2010 09:44 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (edwin3060 @ Jan 8 2010, 03:23 AM) |
| Do you have information other than the article? Because the article first states that the L129A1 is a 'sharpshooter' weapon, and then near the bottom states that:"sharpshooters have been armed with AI's outgoing 7.62 mm L96 rifle. However, the latter's bolt action does not make it a suitable option for a patrolling soldier." Nowhere in the article is the LSW or the minimi mentioned. |
edwin3060 - January 9, 2010 04:30 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (dtwn @ Jan 8 2010, 05:44 PM) |
| Will Wikipedia do? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_%28mi...29#British_Army |
The wikipedia article doesn't say anything about the L129A1 replacing the LSW either, or that the LSW is a sharpshooter weapon.
dtwn - January 9, 2010 05:23 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (edwin3060 @ Jan 9 2010, 12:30 PM) | ||
The wikipedia article doesn't say anything about the L129A1 replacing the LSW either, or that the LSW is a sharpshooter weapon. |
Ah, I think I figured out the issue.
I thought you were asking if the Minimi/and LSW were part of a typical British section makeup.
My bad.
who - January 9, 2010 05:29 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE |
| Military.com sister site HM Forces has an interesting story today on the debate raging across the pond over effective calibers for long range engagements in Afghanistan. It looks as if the UK MOD has issued what the US calls a “designated marksman” rifle for its forces there. The Ministry of Defence has spent £1.6million on 440 semi-automatic rifles, which use 7.62mm ammunition. The order from U.S based company Law Enforcement International followed concern that UK forces’ 5.56mm rounds were unsuitable for battle in Afghanistan. Because the 5.56mm bullets – used in the standard-issue SA80A2 assault rifle – are smaller and lighter, they are less effective from 300 yards or further away. It means insurgents – who use 7.62mm ammunition for their AK47s – back off and shoot at British troops from greater distances. Half of all battles in Helmand are fought between 300 and 900 yards. Now the MoD has splashed out on the gas-operated LM7 semi– automatic rifles – renamed the L129A1 – which can hit targets up to a mile away. Of course, caliber doesn’t necessarily equate to range, but we get the point. I did a little research and found some info on the LM7 from a random UK-based gamer forum. The LM7 looks a lot like a DM rifle in 7.62 with an adjustable stock. The tone of the AP report posted on HM Forces indicates the Brit military is wavering between the 5.56 SA80A2 and a higher-caliber rifle, but I seriously doubt that. It is interesting to see the same debate cropping up in the UK over whether going back to 7.62 makes more sense: But the purchase has raised concerns over whether the UK was wrong to give soldiers the SA80 assault rifle in 1986 rather than retaining 7.62mm firearms. Tory MP Bernard Jenkin, a member of the Commons defence select committee, said: ‘This goes to the heart of the Nato decision back in the 1980s to go for a 5.56mm standard Army rifle. It made the SA80 rifle all the more controversial. ‘The realisation that the SA80A2 does not throw a heavy enough round for combat operations opens up the whole question of what is the right standard rifle for the British Armed Forces.’ I’ve never fired one, but it seems the SA80 is a pretty good rifle and I just don’t think it’s realistic to assume that NATO militaries are going to go back to the 7.62 as the standard issue. Anyone with more gouge from across the pond on this, please dive into the comments and tip lines to let us know more about what’s going on with this. (Gouge: Thanks to hobsonross for the tip off) – Christian |
bcoy - January 19, 2010 01:26 AM (GMT)
New Sharpshooter Rifle Added to Army's Arsenal
(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued January 18, 2010)
A new rifle is being bought for troops in Afghanistan that will improve the long-range firepower available on the frontline, the Ministry of Defence announced today. The Sharpshooter rifle will fire a 7.62mm round and will enhance accuracy of engagement during longer-range firefights with the Taliban and this weapon will be used by some of the best shots in the Infantry.
The Sharpshooter will complement the already potent range of weapons used by our forces in Afghanistan, which includes:
-- SA80A2 assault rifles, which fires 5.56mm rounds;
-- Light Machine Guns, which fires 5.56mm rounds;
-- General Purpose Machine Guns, which fires 7.62mm bullets;
-- the Combat Shotgun, which fires 12-gauge shells;
-- the Sniper System, which fires 8.59mm bullets;
-- Javelin Weapons System, the integrated fire-and-forget missile system.
More than 400 of the semi-automatic Sharpshooter rifles have been bought as a £1.5M Urgent Operational Requirement. It is the first new Infantry combat rifle to be issued to troops for more than 20 years.
Training on the rifles will begin in mid January 2010 and the first batch will be sent to Afghanistan later in the year.
Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, Quentin Davies, said:
"Troops in Afghanistan are already bristling with a variety of weapons they can use when fighting the Taliban. The Sharpshooter rifle adds to this arsenal and provides them with an additional, highly-precise, long-range capability. This is a concrete example of where we add to our range of equipment to ensure our brave forces have the best kit available to them on the frontline."
Colonel Peter Warden, Light Weapons, Photographic and Batteries Team Leader at Defence, Equipment and Support, said:
"The Sharpshooter rifle is very capable and has been bought to fulfil a specific role on the frontline in Afghanistan. It is a versatile weapon which will give our units a new dimension to their armoury. It will complement the SA80A2 by adding to the weapons available to Commanders on the ground. The Sharpshooter's capabilities are also complementary to the current Sniper System.
"Initial feedback to the rifle has been very positive and the Army units deployed in Afghanistan are very keen to get their hands on it."
New sights to be bought for the Sharpshooter rifle include the ACOG 7.62 mm x 6 day sights made by Trijicon of the USA and Magnum Universal night sight sourced through Omni Tech Partners of the USA. Both sights are being bought by Beechwood, the UK agent and distributor for Trijicon and Omni Tech. Personal Laser Range Finders will be provided by Vectronix, Switzerland.
(Source: UK Ministry of Defence; issued January 18, 2010)
A new rifle is being bought for troops in Afghanistan that will improve the long-range firepower available on the frontline, the Ministry of Defence announced today. The Sharpshooter rifle will fire a 7.62mm round and will enhance accuracy of engagement during longer-range firefights with the Taliban and this weapon will be used by some of the best shots in the Infantry.
The Sharpshooter will complement the already potent range of weapons used by our forces in Afghanistan, which includes:
-- SA80A2 assault rifles, which fires 5.56mm rounds;
-- Light Machine Guns, which fires 5.56mm rounds;
-- General Purpose Machine Guns, which fires 7.62mm bullets;
-- the Combat Shotgun, which fires 12-gauge shells;
-- the Sniper System, which fires 8.59mm bullets;
-- Javelin Weapons System, the integrated fire-and-forget missile system.
More than 400 of the semi-automatic Sharpshooter rifles have been bought as a £1.5M Urgent Operational Requirement. It is the first new Infantry combat rifle to be issued to troops for more than 20 years.
Training on the rifles will begin in mid January 2010 and the first batch will be sent to Afghanistan later in the year.
Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, Quentin Davies, said:
"Troops in Afghanistan are already bristling with a variety of weapons they can use when fighting the Taliban. The Sharpshooter rifle adds to this arsenal and provides them with an additional, highly-precise, long-range capability. This is a concrete example of where we add to our range of equipment to ensure our brave forces have the best kit available to them on the frontline."
Colonel Peter Warden, Light Weapons, Photographic and Batteries Team Leader at Defence, Equipment and Support, said:
"The Sharpshooter rifle is very capable and has been bought to fulfil a specific role on the frontline in Afghanistan. It is a versatile weapon which will give our units a new dimension to their armoury. It will complement the SA80A2 by adding to the weapons available to Commanders on the ground. The Sharpshooter's capabilities are also complementary to the current Sniper System.
"Initial feedback to the rifle has been very positive and the Army units deployed in Afghanistan are very keen to get their hands on it."
New sights to be bought for the Sharpshooter rifle include the ACOG 7.62 mm x 6 day sights made by Trijicon of the USA and Magnum Universal night sight sourced through Omni Tech Partners of the USA. Both sights are being bought by Beechwood, the UK agent and distributor for Trijicon and Omni Tech. Personal Laser Range Finders will be provided by Vectronix, Switzerland.
edwin3060 - March 2, 2010 02:45 AM (GMT)
A post from a blog site discussing small arms calibers. The .pdf is a pretty good read. Scrolling down to the comments though there is a mention that 2 x L129 is issued per section. Pending verification, that is a pretty significant change to the orbat!
http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/taki...-kilometer.html
http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/taki...-kilometer.html
bdique - March 2, 2010 05:03 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (edwin3060 @ Mar 2 2010, 10:45 AM) |
| A post from a blog site discussing small arms calibers. The .pdf is a pretty good read. Scrolling down to the comments though there is a mention that 2 x L129 is issued per section. Pending verification, that is a pretty significant change to the orbat! http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/taki...-kilometer.html |
i wonder if this change is just for afghan ops or more permanent. once back in urban terrain, the 7.62's reach is kinda negated (unless they wanna make big holes in people's houses)
bcoy - March 2, 2010 10:12 AM (GMT)
| QUOTE (bdique @ Mar 2 2010, 01:03 PM) |
| i wonder if this change is just for afghan ops or more permanent. once back in urban terrain, the 7.62's reach is kinda negated (unless they wanna make big holes in people's houses) |
Well, for a period of time, the Swedes were using 7.62mm rifles for urban infantry units while the rest of its armed forces are on 5.56mm. Not too sure if this is still the case.
edwin3060 - March 22, 2010 01:41 PM (GMT)
Latest update: The US Army is going the same route as well and equipping their squads with 2x M14 EBR for Afghanistan. I guess the 7.62x51 caliber is really needed there. I'm not sure how much it will affect us though, since Iraq, a more urban environment, has not had a similar requirement.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/
who - May 4, 2010 01:45 AM (GMT)
some update to this thread -
| QUOTE |
| Super Sniper Kills Taliban 1.5 Miles Away 10:57am UK, Monday May 03, 2010 Adam Arnold, Sky News Online A British army sniper helped save his commander and set a new sharpshooting record after killing two Taliban machine gunners in Afghanistan from a mile-and-a-half away. Corporal of Horse Craig Harrison fired his consecutive shots from such a long distance that they took almost three seconds to reach their targets. This was despite the 8.59mm bullets leaving the barrel of his rifle at almost three times the speed of sound. The distance to his two targets was 8,120ft, or 1.54 miles - according to a GPS system - and about 3,000ft beyond the weapon's effective range. The 35-year-old beat the previous sniper kill record of 7,972ft, set by a Canadian soldier who shot dead an al Qaeda gunman in March 2002. Speaking about the incident, Cpl of Horse Harrison said: "The first round hit a machine gunner in the stomach and killed him outright. He went straight down and didn't move. "The second insurgent grabbed the weapon and turned as my second shot hit him in the side. He went down, too. They were both dead." The serviceman then fired a third and final round to ensure the machine gun was out of action. He said: "Conditions were perfect, no wind, mild weather, clear visibility. I rested the bipod of my weapon on a compound wall and aimed for the gunner firing the machine gun." He killed the two insurgents as he protected his troop commander, whose vehicle became trapped in a field in Helmand Province and started coming under fire. Cpl of Horse Harrison, from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, was using the British-built L115A3 Long Range Rifle, the army's most powerful sniper weapon. It is only designed to be effective at up to 4,921ft - just less than a mile - and capable of only 'harassing fire' beyond that range. To compensate for the spin and drift of the bullets as they flew the length of 25 football pitches, Cpl of Horse Harrison reportedly had to aim 6ft high and 20ins to the left. In a remarkable tour of duty, he cheated death a few weeks later when a Taliban bullet pierced his helmet but was deflected away from his skull. During the Taliban ambush, his patrol vehicle was hit 36 times. He said: "One round hit my helmet behind the right ear and came out of the top. "Two more rounds went through the strap across my chest. We were all very, very lucky not to get hurt." He later broke both arms when his army vehicle was hit by a roadside bomb. Cpl of Horse Harrison was sent back to the UK for treatment, but insisted on returning to the front line after making a full recovery. He said: "I was lucky that my physical fitness levels were very high before my arms were fractured and after six weeks in plaster I was still in pretty good shape. It hasn't affected my ability as a sniper." |
bdique - May 4, 2010 03:16 AM (GMT)
well done corporal! most of the time such hits are recorded on just one target, but to fire two record-breaking shots, this is amazing, my full respect to the corporal