Hornet v. MiG

Nearly three miles above the turquoise waters of the South China Sea last July, U.S. Marine Lieutenant Colonel Dan Shipley eyed the dim outline of a fast-approaching Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29 Fulcrum. Flying with the Royal Malaysian Air Force on a training mission, Shipley had been tracking the MiG by radar from the cockpit of his Boeing F/A-18D Hornet. While Shipley and Captain Justin Archibald, the Hor-net’s weapons and sensors officer, could have tried to simulate firing an air-to-air missile at the MiG from a distance, the war game required that the two confirm with their eyes that the MiG really was a MiG, and not a friendly military aircraft or an unarmed civilian airplane.

The Hornet and MiG rocketed past each other at a combined velocity of nearly 1,000 mph, granting each side a clear, albeit fleeting, view of the opposing jet. Both fighter pilots banked hard, each trying to maneuver into position first and stay there long enough to make the other one fall victim to an air-to-air missile or a volley of cannon rounds.

The MiG went nose-high, its pilot relying on the Fulcrum’s superior thrust-to-weight ratio to vertically outrun the Hornet. Anticipating this, Shipley had pulled the Hornet’s nose up and torqued the jet inside the trajectory of the MiG, a maneuver generating 6.8 Gs. Fifteen seconds and two high-G turns later, with the tail of the MiG directly ahead and the distinctive squeal in his headset telling him the infrared seeker in one of the Hornet’s missiles had a lock, Shipley squeezed a red trigger on his control stick, sending a signal to fire. Forty-five seconds into the engagement, the Hornet’s mission computer confirmed a simulated kill.

Later that day, Shipley and Archibald met up with the MiG pilot, Major Ahmad Khusairi bin Ahmad Fadli, in an air-conditioned briefing room at Malaysia’s Kuantan Air Base, about 150 miles east of Kuala Lumpur. While the three aviators discussed the day’s mission and analyzed data from the two aircraft’s computers, the F/A-18 and the single-seat MiG-29 were prepped for the next day’s training flight.

For three weeks each summer, in an exercise known as Air Warrior, the aviators of a Marine Corps Hornet squadron duel with the fighter pilots of the Royal Malaysian Air Force, the only MiG-equipped foreign air force that Marine aviators train with overseas on an annual basis. Accompanying the Hornets to Kuantan Air Base are elements of a C-130J Super Hercules transport and inflight refueling squadron, part of an air controller squadron, and logistics support personnel. Each year a different Hornet fighter squadron arrives in Malaysia for the exercise; last year, Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (All Weather) 225, based at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar near San Diego, California, was chosen to participate.

The U.S. aviators come to Kuantan realizing that because they fly more often than the Malaysians, they are more seasoned, particularly since almost all have actual combat experience. But Air Warrior focuses on air superiority sorties, which the Marine pilots have typically flown only against other U.S. aviators and aircraft. “I’ve trained against Air Force F-16s, F-15s, even the F-22 Raptor, but this is the first time with the Fulcrum,” says Shipley, the executive officer of 225 and a former Blue Angels demonstration pilot. “It is just a phenomenal experience for us to see how a MiG actually performs.” The experience might one day be critical for U.S. pilots, given that the MiG-29 is flown by various U.S. adversaries, including Syria, Iran, Cuba, and North Korea.

Air Warrior, however, is far more than a tactical exercise involving the forces of two friendly nations. The South China Sea is a region where the United States might engage an enemy in a future conflict, so it pays for the military to build allies there—the facet of Air Warrior that will pay the biggest long-term dividends. “By deploying to Malaysia, operating there, and then redeploying there, year after year, we’re not only honing our skill-sets used in that particular exercise, but building and bolstering our relationships in that part of the world,” says Lieutenant Colonel Rob Scott, chief of the future operations group at the Pentagon’s Plans, Policies, and Operations Department for the Marine Corps.

The U.S. ground crews assigned to Air Warrior must prepare for a challenging tour of duty at Kuantan Air Base. Because there were no hangars available to the U.S. maintenance crews, they had to work outside in oppressive heat and humidity. Each day began early, with the maintenance teams wiping thick beads of dew from the Hornets’ canopies. By 9:30 each morning on the flightline, every crew member’s olive drab T-shirt was soaked with sweat. By noon, the pounding sun had driven all but a few crew members into the shade. “One of the things the staff had to look out for was to make sure the maintainers didn’t become heat casualties—that they constantly were drinking water,” says Sergeant Major Ron Halcovich. “The maintainers, once they get working, will forget about everything else that is going on around them.” Fortunately, during the three weeks of Air Warrior, there were no heat casualties.

“This is comparatively an austere environment,” says Major Peter McArdle, 225’s maintenance officer. “It is more austere than Iraq, for instance, in terms of services available and conditions.” McArdle explains that air bases in Iraq, such as Al Asad, which is controlled by U.S. forces, are essentially kept to the same standards as those in the States. “Training in an austere environment is good for the Marines to learn how to operate with limited parts support, limited ground support, smaller ramp space than they’re used to,” says McArdle.

One of the greatest hazards for the Hornets during Air Warrior came from a virtually invisible source: FOD—foreign object debris. A close inspection of the Kuantan flightline reveals chunks of broken concrete every few feet. Most of the pieces are pebble size, but even a paper clip, if sucked into an intake, can destroy the turbine blades of a Hornet’s engines, grounding the craft. Each day of Air Warrior, the Marines spent time doing “FOD sweeps,” shoulder-to-shoulder walks to scan the pavement for debris.

MiG-29s, on the other hand, have special engine intake louvers that block foreign objects, so the Malaysians don’t rank FOD removal nearly as high in priority as U.S. aviation units do.

In Air Warrior engagements, each side consists of one to three aircraft; sometimes the two sides are equally matched and sometimes they are lopsided, with one aircraft, for example, trying to defend itself against two opponents. Regardless of the number of aircraft, all engagements begin the same: After takeoff, the MiGs and Hornets climb to 15,000 feet. Traveling at 350 knots (about 400 mph), they maintain a separation from each other of about a mile. The agreed-upon “hard deck” lies 5,000 feet above ground level; if a fighter flies below 5,000 feet, it has “crashed.” The two sides split, and once out of visual range, the high-G dance begins: Each turns toward the other, with each pilot trying to get a tactical advantage over the other, putting his aircraft in position to fire its weapons. (The U.S. fighters are equipped with Sidewinder missiles stripped of motors and warheads. The MiGs are flying “slick,” without their usual array of air-to-air missiles.)

While each engagement evolves uniquely, both sides follow the same approach: Work the aircraft for all of its advantages over the other, and try to deny the opponent from working his advantages over you. Since the MiG-29 and F/A-18 are fairly evenly matched, victory usually boils down to pilot skill.

“The Americans have better radar, better weapons, so we try to get in close,” says Major Patricia Yapp Syau Yin of the Malaysian air force, recounting a one-on-one engagement she had against a Hornet. “Try to defeat their radar capabilities by doing aggressive moves—zooming in. We have to try to roll in behind them, not roll in front of them. Weapon-wise, software-wise, they are one up. But power-wise, we are one up.” The MiG-29N that the Malaysians fly has a top speed of Mach 2.3 and a climb rate of 65,000 feet per minute; the F/A-18D’s maximum speed is Mach 1.8 with a climb rate of 50,000 feet per minute. The Hornet, however, is a more maneuverable aircraft, with a fly-by-wire control system and more advanced avionics and cockpit displays.

Captain Matt Wieand, a Hornet pilot who flew against Syau Yin, says: “You make the turn in and come into the merge, and you feel the adrenaline. It is like a high-speed chess game, and a little like a dance, that ultimately is all about energy management. You assess the MiG’s status, and if you misjudge the MiG’s energy state or its pilot’s options, you can get killed. You can trade potential energy [altitude] for kinetic energy [speed], and you always have to be thinking ahead. In this business, airspeed is life.”

Just minutes after training to shoot down one another, the MiGs and Hornets fly side by side, refueling. With a para-drogue-tipped fuel hose coursing behind the two refueling pods of a KC-130J Super Hercules, an F/A-18 and a MiG each plug in to refuel, with less than 50 feet separating the tips of the fighters’ wings. Each Hornet fluidly connects to the fuel line; the MiGs, however, which have been retrofitted with NATO standard fueling probes, have a tougher time, though after a few jabs, most of them eventually succeed. “This was my first time [refueling during Air Warrior]—not that good an experience,” says Major Nasruddin Khalid. “I plug in, and the hose disconnected. I tried twice until I reach my bingo fuel, then came back alone.”

Major Josh Vance, the operations officer of the refueling squadron, points out that during some missions, three Hornets and three MiGs were flying just yards from one another off the rear of the tanker while awaiting clearance to connect to the fuel hoses. Tight formation flying, the MiG pilots’ unfamiliarity with the KC-130J and the turbulence patterns generated by its six-blade propellers, and language issues (all Malaysian pilots speak English, but many have strong accents) make for an environment where a mishap—even a disaster—can happen in a fraction of a second.

But in the midst of the high-risk training and detailed coordination of aircraft and ground crews, the Malaysian and American aviators find common ground. “We talk the same language,” says Major Sebastian William of the Malaysian air force, referring to “pilot speak.” “Whatever we talk about is understood by both parties.”

“You have your comedians, your jokers,” says Marine Corps Major Chad Sund. “You have two groups of people who grew up in different cultures, but there are so many similarities.”

By the end of Air Warrior, the Marines had won virtually all of the air-to-air fights (with a few draws). But the Malaysians say they appreciate even the losses. “Every year we learn something new from the Americans,” says Major William. “With the limited number of assets, we can train only so much. Everything that we can take from the Americans, we will take.” The Hornet pilots too value the experience. “Training here is looked at the same way as training back in the States,” says Peter McArdle. “It doesn’t matter if we ‘killed’ everybody. We evaluate how we did and try to determine if and how we could do it better next time.”

Though he has more than 2,000 hours in the Hornet, Shipley was grateful for the opportunity to rack up more air time. “It’s as real as it can get without an AIM-9 actually coming off the rail,” he says. “I was excited. The guy I fought was actually pretty experienced. He was [call sign] Taro. We’re more experienced than [the Malaysian pilots], as we do a lot more practice. But Taro did a lot of out-of-plane maneuvering, not often seen from the Malaysian pilots. He was really good.” Shipley hopes to participate in a future Air Warrior.

“These exercises are tremendously valuable,” says retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters, a global military strategist and author. “They strengthen alliances at both the political and practical levels, but they also allow us to identify and address a wide range of problems in interoperability, from fuel nozzle mismatches to radio incompatibilities—the sort of down-and-dirty details that can make a huge difference in a period of crisis. Human relationships remain critical in 21st century warfare, and these exercises do at least as much to build trust between individuals as they do to rehearse common flight procedures.”

The learning and bond-building will continue, but—starting this year—with new equipment: The Malaysians are replacing their MiG-29s with the newer, more advanced Sukhoi Su-30, a fighter/attack aircraft flown by a number of countries, including some with which the United States has had tense relations (China and Venezuela). While Malaysia is officially neutral, it certainly leans toward friendly these days—due in large measure to Air Warrior.

Writer and photographer Ed Darack wrote the book Victory Point (Berkley, 2009).

great read grunt :D made my morning

I've heard from a US source that Foxy is pretty good when matched up with them.

Interesting part about FOD...so if you engine can tahan FOD one will be less inclined to have a clean FOD sweep?

Surprised that Mig29 perfomed so badly against US F18D hornet especially in home ground. Since MAF also possess thier own F18D, they might want to brush up their skill first before against foreign contender. :)

RMAF doesn't get as much flying hours as it should due to budget.

the video pasted by venez at http://forum.cari.com.my/viewthread.php?ti...&extra=page%3D1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GdLEl9yfQ

On the subject of videos, Shipwreck posted this is a nice older documentary of USN's Hornets vs German Mig-29. You've got to take care to remember that this documentary is old and at that time the USN Hornets did not have HMDs. The US has since rectified this deficiency.

Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9XrdaHaCNo

Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-_nQIQ025M

Part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5DAaknkJWU

Part 4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQByetpFgKM

Part 5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn11cKOm-tU

From the article posted at the start, I just want to say that I came away impressed with Malaysia's MiG drivers and their positive, can-do attitude (to seek out every learning opportunity and suck the bone marrow of lessons learnt dry), given their budget and other organization related restrictions/limitations.

hehe I think the USMC pilots are using skills as they did acknowledge the Mig29 has superior thrust.

though they attempt to blame their plane... so as not to make themselves look too bad.

after loosing so badly, the only thing left for malaysian pilot is to at least appear mature and professional, by graciously accept their defeat.

screaming anything else would make them look childish... and a sore looser.

Is that in the video? don't see anything like that in the article and if so mind pointing out the paragraph where the RMAF pilots are deflecting blame to the aircraft.

True, American pilots get a lot more hours than the Malaysian pilots and have more experience and training with BFM.

The Hornet is a actually a pretty tight turner compared to the Fulcrum. As mentioned in the article about the merge, the MiG- actually went nose up into the vertical to snap its nose back down on the Hornet only to find the Hornet had successfully done the same.

From what was described as "2 hard turns later", I can imagine the Fulcrum lost the energy fight to the Hornet resulting in a simulated AIM-9 shot. I wonder how it had managed to do so if it had continued making use of the vertical and its powerful engines to carry on the fight.

courtesy on the RMAF part as they also operate the F18D?. or the USMC zheng their front cockpit?

on the portion on the AAR i saw the link video abt the AAR by KC130 of F-18 Hornet on the same page but dint want to start a new thread in Iraq. Sure beat taking photo lying down on the KC135.

http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Combat-U.html#

“The Americans have better radar, better weapons, so we try to get in close,” says Major Patricia Yapp Syau Yin of the Malaysian air force, recounting a one-on-one engagement she had against a Hornet. “Try to defeat their radar capabilities by doing aggressive moves—zooming in. We have to try to roll in behind them, not roll in front of them. Weapon-wise, software-wise, they are one up.

To be fair, the RMAF pilots are not blaming their aircraft. You can certainly choose to see it that way, but they are simply acknowledging the differences between the aircraft and explaining their tactics for attempting to deal with it.

Anyone else remember the RAAF exercises with RMAF Mig-29s, where the Mig 29s supposedly trounced the RAAF F18s?

I would hardly call that "blaming their weapons". it simply is an analysis of the situation along with a proposed course of counter actions. very professional in fact.

Icestorm, you need to get over your chip on your shoulder in regard to Malaysia and the MAF, it's no better than the rabid Malaysian military enthusiasts who try to paint everything on Singapore and SAF in a negative light. I'm not sure what drives your bitter hatred from your postings about everything in Malaysia but would point out it's carrying you to a point where you make a mountain out of a molehill in this case.

Perhaps if you met Foxy in person, you might not be so willing to make a negative connotation in regard to her statement, she's a very nice lady who speaks her mind and hardly the type to try and shift blame for her performance.

Besides isn't this the same board where most people talk about the superiority of US aircraft and their weapons over Russian aircraft and when an RMAF pilot admits the same thing, it's taken as trying to cast blame on the aircraft :rolleyes: . I actually wonder what your reaction would be if it was an RSAF pilot in a similar situation, evidence perhaps for the RSAF to buy better or more modern aircraft? :D

BTW as I mentioned earlier, I was told by a US military personnel involved in the exercise that Foxy is rated highly by the US pilots who flew against her.
At the end of the day, the statement is about tactics which basically boils down to knowing your capabilities and limitations as opposed to your opponent's capabilities and limitations and as Five-Two pointed out, going for the best course of action given the situation.

The funny thing is that all of the nationalistic military enthusiasts, irrespective of nationality, would basically fail in this kind of assessment because they always fall into the trap of simply dismissing or demeaning the other side's ability and capability rather than acknowledging that no matter what, the opponent is dangerous and could kill you if you're not careful.

oh.... now i got a chip on my shoulder.... :lol:

sorry... did she say...

"The Americans have better radar, better weapons.... Weapon-wise, software-wise, they are one up."?

i apologise... if she did not. :lol:

and be grateful indeed to the americans who didnt bring in AWACS, send in their F-18E/F or perhaps the F-22... the enemy could kill you if you're not careful. :P

i do remember another time... when the RMAF MIG-29 was also beaten by british harrier during exercise flying fish.... or was it FRYING MIG?

so its not really a big deal to loose against the F-18D.

*Offensive post which does not contribute to debate deleted*

More on Major Patricia Yapp Syau Yin

http://www.mia.org.my/at/at/200811/05.pdf

The problem is you're trying to twist her words into more than it means. Saying you have a chip on your shoulder is a fair comment on your attitude toward Malaysia and the MAF judging from the tone of all your postings whenever Malaysia or the MAF comes up. You remind me of a Singapore forumer called Tripwire who had pretty much the same attitude, of course you could be him :lol: .

It's nice to know though that your attitude towards MAF and Malaysia is not common among the board members here but maybe because those board members do come up to Malaysia and interact with members of the MAF at open day events, RMAF day is coming up on 1st June and will have to check on it, but they should be hosting an open day so if they do perhaps you will come up here then, talk to some of the pilots and maybe find out they don't fit your stereotypes.

If the US bought their AWACS and F-22s, it's a no brainer that the RMAF will lose but at the same time I doubt any other air force would perform any better really and end of the day a moot point, contrary to what some think, Malaysia isn't stupid enough to take on the US in a real fight

dude. stop being a troll. others like Dzirhan may have the patience and respect for you to actually try to reason and explain things out to you, but i dont.

you are being deliberately inflammatory by simplifying the whole issue, distorting it into a barely disguised slur about the RMAF and you are now making lewd derogatory remarks ? on top of that, deliberately provoking and flamebaiting Dzirhan ?

+1 vote from me for ban or suspension.

in truth, I'd rather lose in training exercises, for that is when you have the most learning.

same. especially when you are up against combat pilots with invaluable actual combat dogfights and are ready to share their experiences.

My observation is as such:

True the MiG-29 out-thrusts the F/A-18D however, in such situations, it boils down to the skill of the pilot, because the pilot knows his/her plane inside and out and taking advantage of its advantages, plus putting their training to use, they can even the playing field and score.

Heck, try putting the same combat-experienced pilot to a F-5/A-4 and who knows, he/she might even give a much advanced plane like the later variants of the F-16, F-15 or the Flanker series an unexpected tough dogfight.

As I pharaphrase a quote from the movie Iron Eagle III:

"It is the man, not the machine." :D

I'll just like to say that there is a difference between confidence and arrogance. We should be confident of our capabilities but never arrogant about it - there is no need to put others down to be good at what you do. IMHO, being good at something encourages other forces to join you for exercises and to want to learn from you. Go speak to our SOF guys or for that matter our RSAF guys, they are always willing to learn from others.

The RMAF are good MiG drivers, I won't disparage that. The US Marines are good Hornet drivers, I won't disparage that. The fact that they train together - priceless. We (both Malaysia and Singapore) are very lucky that we are at peace and not at war (unlike the US, who is at war). The only way to learn during peace time is to train and both our countries train with US forces. They both get a chance to learn to do better during DACT. And DACT is just training, a chance to make mistakes and live to learn.

honestly, i think most these people here are just respecting you.... including good old me.

RMAF?

i wont bet on it.

wat's a troll?

someone who questions your loyalty?

.... someone who ask you point blank, if singapore goes to war with malaysia... would you kill malaysian to defend singaporean?

lets see how many here would return a direct simple honest answer... YES or NO... or will my post get edited out by the mods?

its probably better if the mods edited out my post... its probably very very very shameful to declare our will to fight for our country...

of course.. it would be interesting to know if singaporeans, despite our heavy investment in defence hardware, actually have the heartware to fight.

no offence to dzirhan, my apologies if you do feel offended... but while i am sure you will have no reservation to kill anyone to defend your country.

my CDF and I share a similar concern , if singaporeans are just as resolute as malaysians.

did someone forgot to tell you their migs are being retired? they should have use their SU-30MKM.

personal opinion of course.

Couldn't agree more. For all you know, the lessons learnt are so valuable the next time they meet it would be the USAF's turn to be surprised. Don't forget, the Su-30's thrust to weight ratio is pretty close to that of the Mig-29, and the airframe is arguably even better.

I don't see any respect from you, only the same mindset that I see in many chinese forums. We respect Dzirhan because he calls a spade a spade, with his love for country not affecting his objectivity in his analysis. You, however....

IceStorm, loyalty doesn't translate to putting down RMAF pilots. And why has that come into question when originally we were talking about the RMAF and the USAF?

Dear IceStorm,

And what is your point, my friend?

For me, if I have to kill, it is to achieve my orders. You don't have to disrespect the person you are ordered to kill (I wouldn't, as I don't want to underestimate our potential adversaries). I think we have to strike a balance between being objective and being loyal. I've been interacting with you with no malice. Plus I'm not trying to question your loyalty or commitment. So let's get that out of the way and stick to what you know and what I know. ;)

What do you know about the MAF or for that matter other regional threats?

Have you been to higher than division exercises? Have you spent some time at the war game centre like me? Or represented the SAF at UN planning events? If you have then your reaction should not be like that. Singapore's security concerns is wider and our view is more sophisticated than just hating another country. It is to co-opt the neutrals and isolate the people taking an adverse position to ours (so please don't over react and convert a potential adversary into an actual one).

Fighting is a choice but it is the last choice. Our goal is to limit the number of adversaries and raise the cost of intervention - while presenting options to our government leaders for their choice on how we are to respond. Just think on what I said - I cannot be more clear than this due to security concerns.

Be respectful of others and others will respect you.

Respectfully yours,

Grunt.

Lots of examples when it doesn't happen in the real world.

IMO, Foxy was acknowledging the differences between the two aircraft and describing what sort of counter measures they had in preparing to get up close with the hornet. She was stating facts, and if she did in anyway tried to pin any blame of RMAF's performance, I don't see it evident in the short section that the author decided to publish.

Now, even IF there was some sort of "ego-soothing" statement, why the reaction? Pilots have egos the size of the universe anyway... =P Every self-respecting fighter pilot would in some part of themselves, definitely go, "if I had a slightly better (insert component / jet)... the story would be different." Nothing wrong with that; to fly and fight high performance jets requires a level of unshakable confidence.

I think an objective question in this discussion is, "What is the significance of the results?" Not, "Is the RMAF playing the blame game?"

Yes, there's always an exception. Then retaliate and if nec, bring a few friends. It's not too late then (and you'll have the advantage of being the wronged party). People who don't respect others sometimes lack respect for themselves.:)

you think malaysia gonna respect us... if our entire SAF only got 1 battalion, a 2 boat navy and a propeller plane for an air force?

i also respect dzirhan calling a spade a spade...

thus i wonder wat is wrong with me quoting a quote and express wat i think of the quote?

should i add some sugar coating and dance to others tune?

or you mean i have no right to think and express my own opinions?

I agree. Some people only respect a big stick. If too nice, they take advantage.

I also agree with Grunt though. No reason for Singaporeans to whack MY either. Better to have peace than war.

I wouldn't read too much into the major's comments. Whether an aircraft has better weapons or radar is a matter of fact and usage.

the strong is always surrounded by "friends" automatically.
the weak is always surrounded by fiends naturally.

fighting is always a choice... for the strong.
fighting is never a choice... for the weak.

you may plan at the top... but its me who will dig at the bottom at the front.
you draw a red line on your map... i have to stain the river red with blood.

yet.... which is more important?... the stone at the top of peak or the stone at base of the mountain?

respectfully yours... Mr higher then division level planner.

ICE ICE BABY... :P