According to Warship Technology June edition, the Thais have a US$6.6 bil expansion plan for the next 10yrs. Plans include the purchase of 2 frigates with delievery from 2010. Frigate negotiation is already taking place with BAe for 2 ships based on the Frigate 2000 design, upon which the RMN Lekiu class is also based on. They are also looking to acquire 2 2,500 ton SSK subs in the 2012 ~2017 timeframe. They also wish to purchase 2 9,000 ton LPDs by 2010, capable of carrying 500 troops. Ambitious eh? B)

Wow...they seem serious. Buying frigates, subs and LSTs....would these be for naval upgrading or improving their current status operational level? I mean they got the carrier for power projection reason right? But then they didn't really get ships to complement it....the Chinese warships they bought suck big time... BTW is the RTN a force to be reckon with in the region....perhaps say compared to SG or MY or even INDON perhaps? Seeing their naval assets, it seems like its ok for general securing of their terrtorial waters, economic zones and fishing zones, but otherwise could be a strain or even over-stretching (my personal observation)

Where are they going to find $$ to pay for it? :o

:huh: That is a US$6.6 billion question. :lol:

But it is interesting that the requirement for a LPD has returned.

Yes it is.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the PLAN being given berthing rights in Burma..

Limited barter-trading perhaps...??? That's only if they do proceed with the expansion of the Royal Thai Navy (RTN) in the first place. Anyway, it ain't the first time the Thai-Government had announced such expansion plans for it's RTN.

InFact (IIRC), the RTN expressed great interests in Kockums Gotland-Class (A-19) and HDW Type-209 SSKs in the '90s, plans came to a thwart (along with others major-projects on-hands (Additional Chakri Nareubet-Class "V/STOL Carrier" And LPDs) after the '97 Asian Financial Crisis. Just some of the difficulties of actually executing such expansion plans for the RTN...

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From the same reference...

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~~ Project-ION Phoenix ~~ ~~ Op. IceBerge ~~ ~~ Iowa_BB61 ~~ ~~ xxKuZNeTxx ~~


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Emm, Either my understanding sucks or the Thai Navy arms procurement Office sucks, because we see the RTN has repeated ordering of their “real sucks” stuff for 2nd time. FYI, the newly ordered Thai OPV made in China actually utilizes the same 053H frigate frame that similar to the ones Thai Navy ordered 20 years ago. :lol:

The story of the Chinese ships being crap had their basis in the first four 053HT Jianghu frigates as well as the later two F25T Naresuan class ordered by RTN. During the construction period the Thai naval officers sent to inspect the construction process of the F25Ts found the Chinese construction standards to be, put kindly, downright dismal. (watertight doors not shutting properly, unsafe electrical wirings, no damage control measures etc) As a result the Thais intended to cancel the purchase, but after some negotiations German shipbuilding expertise was brought in to aid in the ship construction, and the ship had to pass German quality control before the Thais accepted the ship. Reportedly the F25Ts are already better than the earlier 4 053H Jianghus ordered, but they are still maintenance intensive and still have lower construction standards than the west.

BTW, I wonder if the 054 was considered for intended frigate purchase.

Chinese must be flattered if their stuff were benchmarked to the stringent EU standards. However, it’s good for them to put themselves under such scope rather than being afraid of “humiliated”. I’m not quite so sure about the ship build industry of China, but from what I have learned, the Chinese aviation industries and PLAAF did gain quite a lot from cooperation with as well as manufacturing for western trained airforces like Pakistan or even Iran.

Anyway, Asian is always not good at workmanship of their products, that’s why they usually marketing their products substantially cheaper than their western counterparts. Like what we have seen, a 10% final quality edge of your product over your competitor’s’ could well let you charge several times higher price than your copetitor’s. I mean if Thai Navy purchase just 1 german made vessel could spend all their purchasing power for several similar Chinese made products. That’s the real fact you have judge quality and cost benefit

054 obviously is not for export, even Pakistan is only getting the same 053H ( as F22p or something), the latest news is new 054A is currently being built in Chinese shipyard( according to Kanwa) which with the new vertical launched HQ16 SAM (Naval version of SA-17 Grizzly) , a co-operated project with Russian to replace decade old HQ-7 (French Crotale)

The Thais didn't judge Chinese construction standards against EU standards - Chinese construction standards then were just so horrible that the Thai evaluation report of the Chinese construction was downright brutal.

Neither were the Chinese ships particularly cheap - as a result of the difficulty of maintaining them, through-life costs shaved off the savings accrued through purchasing Chinese hulls. It is not just a matter of shoddy construction standards - that has implications on sea-worthiness, operational availability of ships, ship survivability etc. And no, to say that Asians are not good at product workmanship is a false generalisation - would you say that Japan is known for lousy product workmanship?

Obvious? Has there been any request for purchase of 054s that was rejected?

Well, actually to my surprise, I even do not realize there were F25T built, also from China, what I have learned, there’re going to be 2 more OPVs in addition to the 2 OPVs already delivered. The cost of each OPV is around 35 Million USD, D*mn cheap. One has always been wondered why Thais keep ordering ships if they were really unsatisfied, or customer by nature is not satisfied at all. BTW, thanx for YF’s info, I mean we really can’t know such info in the open media. ;)

Because the upfront costs of the Chinese vessels certainly are cheap. Thailand hasn't exactly been overflowing with cash since the 90s economic crisis, but security requirements still must be met. And Chinese shipbuilding standards have definitely improved as a result of the F25T experience. So if Chinese vessels are the best they can afford, then that is what they take.

On the other hand, the fact that they are looking to BAe for their newer frigates when they forsee a bigger procurement budget (how they forsee getting a bigger budget is another matter) suggest that they see better value for money in an European vessel than what they have gone along with in terms of Chinese vessels. Of course, this is just my speculation (I do not know if they have evaluated Chinese vessels for their requirements or not, but to not do so would be exceedingly strange) and should be treated as such.

Yep...the Chinese-made vessels sucks (in all aspects - be it workmanship, QC, maintenance etc) And the reason why the Thais bought them, was probably becos' of the flexible payment modes and exchange rates; also it could be becos' at that point, they rather have low quality hulls rather than not enough hulls, they should have weighed their options properly before hand. I mean they aren't stupid, but perhaps the consequences of having lower quality hulls as to not having sufficient hulls is more dire. Therefore they chose the Chinese option.

If the Thais are anxious over Chinese fleet having a presence in the Andaman Sea, then its strange for them to be using Chinese hulls to patrol or beef up their presence right?? They should instead get invlove in more naval exchanges with India, get several MPAs and strengthen their aerial maritime strike force and get in-flight refuellers to enable them to patrol and maintain a credible presence. Just my own opinion.

IMO, The Thai should probably use these fund to expedite the modernisation of her airforce.

As for naval expansion, procuring is one thing and maintaining it is just another matter. Hope their future LPD wont be like another Chakri Naruebet.

Yes, This is just like the scenario that one of your neighbor purchasing a car, we all know, if compared to Mercedes Benz etc, every normal car just sucks, however, as long as this car suits the best for what this neighbor's need, I think the car, no matter how inferior to the Benz, is the best particular to the neighbor.

I think at beginning we might concentrate too much on the Thai FFG's workmanship, however, come alone with the improvement of Chinese shipbuilding industries, This workmanship may not be the major concerns for RTN's selection of new FFG, it could be the 053H's feature-lacking and not so stylish( Say, not so stealthy etc) could be the main concerns for Thais. The 053H with only HQ-7 point ADS is the technology representing 1980s level. Because of today's more and more advanced AshM, anything less than a VLS is very difficult to survive in face of the sea skimming missile. And because of tactic differences between PLAN & RTN, Chinese obsolete 1000-2000 tonnage class FFG, the 054A is not a direct upgrade from 053H but rahter a brand new one with DW around 4000 tons, Are Thais really need such a big hull? 1000-2000 tonnage FFG with feature rich suitable to operate in littoral water is best suit RTN need. And Europeans can provide this with more mini FFGs available around 1000-2000 DW.

I think another important factor behind RTN's expanding of their Navy fleet is if anyone else in your neighborhood with major navy expanding characterized by employing new modern FFGs, then of course you have to do something to keep pace. The 6 Chinese 053 FFG as the backbone of RTN serves well when there were even not major FFGs in other navies for quite a long time, but may be a bit out of date when other navies new FFGs come into stage now and in near future. As a key member of Asean, Thailand need maintain a respectful status quo. More power equals speaks louder.

You miss the point. The point is that they can only afford Chinese vessels with the budget they had - and even then they would not compromise by having Chinese electronic equipment installed on the hulls. They insisted on western electronics.

I'm not sure that Chinese workmanship doesn't figure at all in choosing a Western design. Bad experiences count for something.

Steel is cheap. With China's low manpower costs, additional tonnage becomes dirt cheap. What really costs money is not hull tonnage, but the electronics installed on the ship.

You are assuming they buy for prestige. At least in the case of the Chakri, they don't.

Chakri is the biggest white elephant I really no idea how to comment, it’s with mountains of problems like high maintaining cost and weapon integrating matters, Perhaps it was dubbed “Royal yacht”, so anything “royal” is another prestige ? :D

Contrary to widely held belief (and I was at one time also among the ignorant), Chakri wasn't a prestige purchase.

The Chakri LPH was actually borne out of a requirement in the 1980s when Thailand faced a serious invasion threat from Vietnam. The Thai Marines was given the task of striking behind the anticipated Viet lines, and they were beefed up in size and capability. What was lacking was the amphib lift needed to support their operations. From this the requirement for 2 LPDs was formed. Only thing was, when the Letter of Intent for the LPDs were signed, the threat from Vietnam dissipated, while a new threat emerged - pirates in the Gulf of Siam. The RTN then faced a requirement to patrol the Gulf of Siam which contained important natural gas reserves and supported Thai fishing industry. Similarly the Thai Marines found themselves tasked to raid pirate strongholds and rescue their hostages. After an AOA (analysis of alternatives) they found that the most effective way to deal with the problem was a large platform which could support helicopters. The key was helicopters. The need for a dock was gone, what was important was a large flight deck instead. And so the RFP was changed to that of a LPH. And the Chakri was the result.

So one can see that it was actually a purchase that occurred after careful analysis of Thai requirements. The tragedy was that after the 90s economic crisis funds wasn't avalable to fully maintain it in service - that does not detract from the fact that it was bought to satisfy specific operational requirements of the RTN and the Thai Marines and not for prestige as you allege.

$6.6 Billion!! with this monetary allocation the RTN could revamp almost 1/2 of her entire fleet of combat aircraft. Replace her F-5 and procure F-16C/D blk 52/60
enhance their pliot training, equip their technician with better skill.

I think the Thai needed quality and quantity but could not afford both. So in the end they had to compromise. Build up the qty through those chinese purchase but try not to undermine the quality by using western electronics. Now that funds become more available, get more quality stuff from the Brit.

They dont have a choice. They have a long coast line and 2 fleets to equip.

Can anyone recall what's the most major Naval deployment (including their Carrier & LPD in operations or Exercise)...outside Thai waters ?

-deleted-

Thais buying a sub

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/15...for-army-police

I don't know, 5B Bht is only about S$210M. How many helo and submarines can that buy, over three years?

Likely a second hand submarine. could be from Sweden (since they almost bought the Nacken previously). This submarine could be the Nacken upgraded for the Danish Navy but since returned to Sweden after Denmark retired her submarine fleet.

Or they could go to Germany and ask for Greek U214s.

it could also be a german the much much older Type 206.....

The Thais need a credible naval force out there as there's two bodies of water which they need to watch over as part of their national security - Andaman Sea / Bay of Bengal and Gulf of Thailand.....there's much at stake eg EEZ, maritime security, natural resources etc...... but much more urgent in the Andaman Sea / Bay of Bengal......this is because the Chinese have been extremely active in the area with establishing naval basing rights in Myanmar ports.

There are supposedly vast amounts of gas / oil deposits in the region.....if Thailand were to safeguard their rights, they would need a strong deterrent force.....currently their navy consists of 1 carrier, 10 frigates, 7 corvettes, 26 patrol boats, 6 missile speed boats, 9 amphibious assault ships, 7 mine sweepers, 15 fleet support vessels and 77 river patrol boats....they also have 20,000 Marines, a naval air arm consisting of helos and also AV-8s (which are currently pending replacement)....

Lacking in the aspect of maritime patrol aircrafts, submarines and more capable ships such as OPVs...but its said that the Thais are exploring them......

Latest news from jane's is that Thailand is interested in S.Korea's Type 209s.

Oops... I forgot to quote that the details of RTN's inventory came from wikipedia....


Hey YF, South Korea's 209s? German design but built in South Korea? Just as well, cos' the South Koreans are looking to acquire bigger boats...with AIPs....

Hopefully the Thais would be able to put them to good use.... would be operating almost same ones as the Indonesians.....

wow..

that makes for

singapore
4 - challenger class, 2 archer class AIP OTW

Malaysia
2 - scorpene no AIP

Indonesia
2 - ex german type 209s
2- Kilo class [on order]
2 X ? submarines (to be ordered)

Vietnam
2 X Yugo (midget class submarines)
6X kilo submarines

thailand (forgot to add them in)
? submarines


thats a pretty impressive little fleet that could deny chinese naval access to the malacca streets and consequently the ship-borne flow of oil to SK, Japan and China. will ASEAN member nations now possess the capability to scupper the chinese string of pearls ?

we live in interesting times.

Not sure if they mean S.Korea's second hand 209s or new built 209s made in Korea.

And the ability to give the PLAN a bleeding nose if disputes over the Spratlys turn hot. :ph43r:

I am not sure if ASEAN would actually blockade Chinese shipping given the complex geopolitical situation amongst the member states. However it is likely that they will at least agree to maintain the free flow of shipping and deter any attempted blockade wherever that may come from.

agreed. i dont think a blockade is possible. just intend to clarify. i meant sufficient capability to harass / deny PLAN ships access/deterrence factor against PLAN operations in the malacca straits. definitely. not talking about terms of political will / desire for such a military solution.

that this means for the first time, all 4 countries bordering the malacca straits, have acquired submarine capabilities. dont understand this bit though:

quite confused. this is just to clarify. dont understand who might want to blockade.

who would want to blockade the malacca straits ? incur the wrath of the USN, squeeze Japan, south korea and taiwan by the balls (of their oil supply) and to a lesser extent China (since they have their Myanmar pipeline)

i can see a blockade coming up from the south to deter any such northern aggression or in event of a prolonged conflict, cut off the flow of oil but why would any country from up north want to be imposing such a blockade ?

need not be blockade, interdiction/sinking of any ships should they attempt to disrupt the flow of shipping in the Malacca Straits will do just fine...

For argument sake, can the Indians actually blockade the Straits? They've got some suks stationed in the Andamans. Add their naval strength and its makes for some powderful mixture.

Probably targeted at Myanmar but who knows...

it's good that the thais going to buy the submarine, they better be serious this time, which means able to afford it instead of buying to compete all it's neighbours, otherwise another white elephant.....it's not just the Chakri nareubet, but what about those Matador (Harrier) jump jet? these are the 2 examples that they already bought. Others like the FA 18 that they cancelled and end up loosing the deposits....they also plan to have a 2nd batch of 6 Gripen and another erieye but also cancelled.

What's the point of that? They do that and China will sit back and laugh as the USN hammers the IN. If they want to do something to China they've got to make the effect precise instead of affecting Japan and Korea and just about every other country using the Strait. On the other hand, if the question is, can the IN deny PLAN access to the Indian Ocean, then yes, they are perfectly capable of doing so.

The cost of a new type 209 is about 250 - 300 M. So its likely to be a second hand 209 if from Korea. Wonder how much the spare 214 from Greece will cost. That would be make a good replacement for the remaining Challenger.

deferred, not canceled.