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 Indonesia - TNI, Military/Political Discussions
Joe Black
Posted: Oct 19 2006, 11:54 PM


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JAKARTA, October 19 (RIA Novosti) - The Indonesian Navy plans to buy several modern diesel submarines from Russia, the Antara news agency said Thursday.

The agency quoted Navy Chief of Staff Admiral Slamet Soebijanto as saying that the decision to acquire four Kilo-class and two Amur 950 (Lada-class) submarines had been taken because of Russian-made submarines' advantage over their German and French equivalents in terms of reliability and cost.

The Navy sent a proposal to the Indonesian government in January to purchase 12 diesel submarines from Russia by 2024. First Admiral Abdul Malik Yusuf, the chief spokesman for the Indonesian Navy, said at the time that combat submarines were needed as strategic armaments, enabling the country to maintain security in its territorial waters.

Indonesia's leading magazine, Tempo, earlier said the country's navy has deployed two German-made submarines, although until recently the Indonesian submarine fleet was entirely composed of Soviet-made combat submarines.

The Amur 950 submarine is a smaller version of Project 677 or Lada-class diesel submarine, and is designed to operate in the littoral environment, in deep and shallow waters. The vessel features a new anti-sonar coating for the hull, an extended cruising range, and advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine weaponry, including the Club-S cruise missile system.

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This post has been edited by Joe Black on Oct 19 2006, 11:56 PM
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Sayaret
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 10:27 AM


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Abit confused here - the Amur sub and the Kilo subs are actually same right? Except that Amur is more advanced version, and the ones that Indonesia intends to get is the watered down version of the actual version the Russians are using for themselves. So is the actual version used by the Russians good? And this version which the Indonesians are getting, are they good too? Both as compared to the Scorpene, Challengers and the Gotlands, how to they match up?


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Shotgun
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 10:37 AM


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I'm guessing it all depends on its AIP now. Diesel subs are awfully quiet. Quiet enough for hiding in noisy shallows. The question is, how long they can stay under on batteries.
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diCam
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 11:34 AM


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no money for putting out the haze and yet got money to spend on arms! they still have face to ask for $$ for anti-haze ops!!! angry.gif


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tankee1981
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 11:56 AM


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Thats strange...the last time i checked they are planning to buy from the South Koreans...what ever happen to that plan?
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homing
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 01:28 PM


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Wah can be armed with Club-S cruise missiles. This means or signal Singapore should high time to get some cruise missile for it's armed forces by fair means or foul means.


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Orcishwarrior
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 06:58 PM


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decision to acquire four Kilo-class and two Amur 950 (Lada-class) submarines had been taken because of Russian-made submarines' advantage over their German and French equivalents in terms of reliability and cost.

you sure!! huh.gif

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IceStorm
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 09:45 PM


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the russians are known for selling platform cheap.. but charge an arm for the spareparts. biggrin.gif


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oerlikon
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 10:33 PM


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Did not know the Russian has any AIP developed. So probably just the conventional one.

Amur is the small version of kilo.

What they did not say is probably Russian is keen on batter trade.
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YourFather
Posted: Oct 20 2006, 11:12 PM


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Submarines are high maintenance items which need care to maintain their low acoustic profile. Judging by how badly neglected their fleet was just a few years back, I'm not sure that even if they carry out this purchase we need to be overly concerned? IMO, if they had so much money to spend on subs, they'd do better to spend it on more OPVs to solve their piracy problem.


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Hunter
Posted: Oct 21 2006, 11:37 AM


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I prefer they spend more money on solving the haze and piracy issues than getting offensive weapon systems.
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gary1910
Posted: Oct 23 2006, 05:45 PM


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Indonesia to buy 4 Israeli drones via Philippine company, official says

The Associated Press
Published: October 22, 2006

JAKARTA, Indonesia Indonesia will purchase four Israeli unmanned planes, or drones, through a Filipino distributor, a Defense Ministry official said Sunday.

Indonesia chose the Israeli Searcher Mark II drones after receiving 42 offers since February, including from companies in the Philippines, Russia and the Netherlands, ministry spokesman Brig. Gen. Edy Butar Butar said.

The ministry chose Philippines-based Kital Philippines Corp. which will also supply a command post, controlling equipment, infrared cameras and heat-tracking device, Butar Butar said.

No financial details were disclosed. Israeli drone manufacturers declined comment.

The deal was a surprise to some because Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country, has long supported Palestinian independence efforts and does not have diplomatic relations with Israel.................

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/10/22/...rael_Drones.php

This post has been edited by gary1910 on Oct 23 2006, 05:46 PM


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Sayaret
Posted: Oct 24 2006, 12:12 AM


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Hi all, am really curious how do the Amur and Kilo subs that the Indonesians are intending to get measure up to our Challengers and Vastergotlands? Besides the lack of AIP, the anit-sonar coating and other aspects...are they better than ours? Also, if the actual Amur were to be gotten, not the watered down version being bought, would it be a match for us? Sub to sub that is...


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unimog52344
Posted: Oct 24 2006, 12:23 AM


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QUOTE (Sayaret @ Oct 24 2006, 12:12 AM)
Hi all, am really curious how do the Amur and Kilo subs that the Indonesians are intending to get measure up to our Challengers and Vastergotlands? Besides the lack of AIP, the anit-sonar coating and other aspects...are they better than ours? Also, if the actual Amur were to be gotten, not the watered down version being bought, would it be a match for us? Sub to sub that is...

from a technical point of view, the kilo class SSK are very capable platforms. when iran took delivery of theirs, the USN deployed one of their subs to observe the delivery. current generation submarines technology is equals to tat of the early generation LA class subs. their SSK designs are pretty on par with SSKs produced by the Germans and the swedish. however, with the indonesian purchase, the indonesians will most probably be facing the same problems as the indians faced when they purchased their kilo class subs. the original design of the sub was for cold water operations not tropical operations. the indians took a number of years to correct the problems. indonesia with a severe budget problem will be unable to correct the problems. most probably, their new subs will face serious operational problems when delivered.
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Sayaret
Posted: Oct 25 2006, 01:14 PM


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Ahh...weakness.. or at least a leak which RSN can exploit to gain advantage over.. But supposing they get those sorted out, how would their subs measure up against ours? Afterall ours are pretty old, this is despite the fact that one of our Challengers actually got thru USN defense of a carrier. I suppose besides hardware, training would be a very determining point too.



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unimog52344
Posted: Oct 26 2006, 03:35 PM


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QUOTE (Sayaret @ Oct 25 2006, 01:14 PM)
Ahh...weakness.. or at least a leak which RSN can exploit to gain advantage over.. But supposing they get those sorted out, how would their subs measure up against ours? Afterall ours are pretty old, this is despite the fact that one of our Challengers actually got thru USN defense of a carrier. I suppose besides hardware, training would be a very determining point too.

assuming they solve their problems which i dont think they will in the near future. training will play a deciding factor. however, the RSN will be stronger as we have capable support assets to support our subs. the part about our sub being able get through the defense of the US carrier group could indicate a lucky fluke on our part. furthermore, you have to consider that the US carrier group ASW support is not as comprehensive as before due to the retirement of the Spruance class ASW destroyers. also USN ASW tactics have been focused on a Blue water scenario instead of a Littoral one. the focus on littoral ASW has been around for the last ten to fifteen years and thus their tactics are still in an experimental stage. there was an incident in the ninties where the RSAF was shadowing a LA class sub while it was in the south china sea.
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Black Aces
Posted: Oct 26 2006, 05:05 PM


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[QUOTE=unimog52344,Oct 26 2006, 03:35 PM]
[QUOTE]... there was an incident in the ninties where the RSAF was shadowing a LA class sub while it was in the south china sea. [/QUOTE]


Can provide more details on that?

This post has been edited by Black Aces on Oct 26 2006, 05:07 PM


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Sayaret
Posted: Oct 26 2006, 07:23 PM


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Hi Unimog, agree with you on training that separates us from them. As in the other sub thread, I have already removed my worries about RSN subs not being able to match up to the newer subs our neighnours are planning to get.

As for the fluke luck to penetrate the USN carrier ASW defences, I would agree also that with the retirement of the Spruance class ships, there's a hole for potential adversaries to capitalise. But then again, the USN would have noted that point and made adjustments for it. But still the fact is that we did penetrate.... a daring feat itself.


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LazerLordz
Posted: Oct 27 2006, 02:47 AM


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I hardly think it was a fluke. The Swedes did the same thing too.

It's about knowing what weak points the USN has and capitalising on it. We are a fast, littoral Navy, with increasing green water capability and projection. It is all we need to maintain our naval sphere of influence, knowing that our agility will protect our coastal waters, and our tri-service force apps will allow us greater overwatch over the seas to detect and possibly pre-empt any threats, not to mention provide another form of air defense detection(possibly verification) too.

Not sure if others share my view that our frigates also serve as a command node in our air defense umbrella, possibly a future sensor platform for ballistic missile defense?

This post has been edited by LazerLordz on Oct 27 2006, 02:48 AM


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Sayaret
Posted: Oct 27 2006, 11:25 AM


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I agree with you Laserlordz, our Frigates are for more than just patrolling the seas and for visual deterrence. In fact, knowing how far-sighted we usually are with our defence requirements, to spend so much money on the Frigates, there would most certainly be a much bigger reason behind their acquistion. In depth studies would have been done on the possiblity of the ships being used a-la Ageis style. In fact, if the sensors and electronics on board the Frigates are anything to go by, for our own missile defence requirements, it would be more than sufficient.

As for naval strike purposes, I personally believe that it would be left to subs....I believe that becos subs are such flexible platforms, the navy would definitely explore and exploit this to their maximum advantage.


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